Path: mit-eddie!snorkelwacker!usc!samsung!noose.ecn.purdue.edu!mentor.cc.purdue.edu!f3w From: f3w@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Mark Gellis) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: WARNING Message-ID: <9629@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> Date: 13 Apr 90 15:56:54 GMT References: <8951@lindy.Stanford.EDU> <13085@csli.Stanford.EDU> Reply-To: f3w@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Mark Gellis) Distribution: usa Organization: Purdue University Lines: 31 The Man Who Talked with Books looks up from his Harp and turns to the on-going conversation about giving backrubs. He says: "Don't give up. It is certainly true that within any particular group you may find people who are, as a rule, less willing to be touched. Find another group. The SCA and the sf community have always seemed very friendly to me, although even here you will have shallow, self-serving bastards and bitches a-plenty. That, as Michel Foucault would say, is the order of things, my friend. You may also have to examine your own tactics. Sometimes people who mean well, and who simply want to give comfort and enjoyment, come off, by accident, as having ulterior motives, or being strange, or whatever. You may have fallen in with a bad group of people. If so, abandon them to their sticky, hollow lives, and find a new group. You may be choosing the wrong time. It happens. People make mistakes. Look at the recent election." "If I may add one more piece of advice, don't worry about finding a group of people that likes backrubs. If you can find one or two good friends (preferably of whatever sex turns you on) who like to give and recieve backrubs, you have found a resource of considerable worth, one that will not increase much in value even if it increases enormously in the number of people who are involved." "Remember, don't give up. It's not over until the fat lady sings. Hell, it's not over until the guy with six flaming wings blows his trumpet!" He sits, drinks his beer, hopes he has provided some help, and wonders if anyone is going to invite him over to a table. (Preferably if cute babes are involved <--- not a 100% serious comment.) Path: mit-eddie!snorkelwacker!usc!samsung!uunet!shelby!lindy!news From: HF.ZMF@forsythe.stanford.edu (Miriam Ferziger) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: Help Wanted Message-ID: <8960@lindy.Stanford.EDU> Date: 13 Apr 90 16:11:26 GMT Sender: news@lindy.Stanford.EDU (News Service) Distribution: usa Lines: 41 In article <9004112136.AA02823@hawk>, wgarmil@HAWK.ULOWELL.EDU (WildCard) writes: > >Patrons of the bar, I need some advise! Many of you have kindly suggested >to me that I avoid my pet pest Kevin. However, that is not always possible. >Kevin follows me, a situation not to my liking. Even though he dispises >anything to do with computers, he has enrolled as a fulltime student at the >college I attend in Mundania as a Computer Science major (the same major I'm >in). > >help in this situation). The question is: how do I aviod someone working in >the same room? Or more persisely, how to prevent someone from bugging me >when we both work in the same room? . . . "I do not know if this will work, and most likly it won't, as I have usually used it on inanimate objects," said Viola. "It is something I learned when I was working in a cafeteria. I call it 'studious ignorance': put simply, it is not seeing that which you do not *want* to see (Douglas Adams calls it "somebody else's problem") It isn't as easy with an animate object, but it might help. "If this annoyance contines to bug you try a little reverse psychology. Avoid him when possible, but if you must interact, be polite (this does not mean be friendly). I have done it to one or two people that I truly detest and boy does it work!! Usually they are confused as hell, flabbergasted, or upset that their stupid ploys are not working. Best of luck to you, WildCard." > > _ __ _ __ How can we dance > ' ) / // / / ) / when our earth is turning? > / / / o // __/ / __. __ __/ How can we sleep > (_(_/ <_ (wgarmil@hawk.ulowell.edu) -Midnight Oil --------------------- Viola hf.zmf@forsythe.stanford.edu O Time! Thou must untangle this knot, not I; It is too hard a knot for me t'untie Wm. Shakespeare (_12th Night_) --------------------- Path: mit-eddie!snorkelwacker!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!armadillo.cis.ohio-state.edu!kent_a_jenkins From: kent_a_jenkins@armadillo.cis.ohio-state.edu Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: WARNING Keywords: backrubs Message-ID: <79217@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu> Date: 13 Apr 90 17:23:42 GMT References: <8951@lindy.Stanford.EDU> <13085@csli.Stanford.EDU> <9629@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> Sender: usenet_news@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu Reply-To: Thenomain Organization: Ohio State University Computer and Information Science Lines: 37 Thenomain leans back in his chair at Table 15b. Far back. Over his shoulder he comments to another conversation. "I don't like backrubs. The nasty things tend to hurt. The folks attempting it tell me I need to relax, but isn't that what it's for in the first place?" He turns back to face the players, setting his chair to rights. "If I was relaxed I wouldn't need it, no?" He looks up into the rafters a moment, then down at the deck of cards. "Oh, is it my deal? Sorry." He shuffles them briefly, dropping a card now and again [no, I'm not really good at it], and deals out five to a player. "A true, funny story, eh? Mmm, the funniest ones I can remember are ones that I've been told from my childhood. Besides, that last one just can't be beat." He looks at his cards a moment. "Alright. I suppose I'll open with this. A poem. Not very good, but then again," he chuckles, "neither is this hand." There's a cricket in my shoe, I know Because it often tells me so. It sleeps in my socks when I sleep; An insect I can always keep. There's a cricket in my shoe. There's a cricket in my shoe, you see How it often sings to me? I never run, I watch my step, I make sure I use little pep. There's a cricket in my shoe. Thenomain clears his throat and raises his glass in a private kind of toast. "To Dr. Seus, the man who aged backwards." -=- -- Thenomain -- Kent Jenkins -- "I'm a figment of my own -- -- jenkins@osu-20.ircc.ohio-state.edu -- imagination, thank you." -Kaj -- -- kent-j@cis.ohio-state.edu -- Brainwave Turbulance, Inc. -- -- It's our lives, the U.S. Constitution! (Void where prohibited by Law) -- Path: mit-eddie!snorkelwacker!bionet!uwm.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!zephyr.ens.tek.com!tektronix!reed!turner From: turner@reed.bitnet (Phantasmagoria) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Here is my song Message-ID: <14696@reed.UUCP> Date: 13 Apr 90 21:23:19 GMT Sender: news@reed.UUCP Reply-To: turner@reed.bitnet (Phantasmagoria) Distribution: usa Organization: Reed College, Portland, OR Lines: 66 Caithelin steps from the corner where she's been trying to dance. {I will learn to do this, really.} "Well, I think I have another song to sing. I don't remember which of you made me think of it and for that I apologize. I just remember someone feeling bad about having to choose to get out of a relationship and this song sort of popped into my head, and so much belatedly I sing it. Eddie will you help?" She steps to the piano and tries to look like she knows what she's doing. Listens as he plays the first few bars. Guess that it was bound to happen Just a matter of time, Well I've come to my decision babe, And it's one of the painful kind Cause it seems that you wanted a martyr Thats the one thing I just couldn't do Cause darlin' I can't hang upon no lover's cross for you. Well I really got to hand it to you Girl, you really tried, But for every time that we spent laughing There were two times that I cried You were trying to make me a martyr Something I just wouldn't be Darlin', I can't hang upon no lover's cross for you. Cause tables are meant for turning People are bound to change Bridges are meant for burning When the people and memories they join aren't the same So I hope that you can find another Who can take what I could not He'll have to be a super guy Or maybe a super god You see, I never was much of a martyr before And I ain't bound to start nothing new Darlin' I can't hang upon no lover's cross for you. There is a sort of contemplative look in her eyes. "I don't know that it quite fits that situation but it sort of means it's o.k. to move out of a relationship that isn't working for you." "Thanks Eddie, can I buy you a drink?" She walks to the bar and gives Hildy a hug, "I think hugs are one very definite thing that people don't think enough about their RDA of. More hugs. People worry so much about nutrition, and getting a proper diet, but what about a proper diet of hugs and touches? I think you live longer with a diet of bad food and good hugs than the other way around. But then, I don't believe in bad food. Singing, hugging and cooking are the three things that I do for my spiritual and mental health. They make me feel good, and it tends to make others feel good." "Terry, I'm sorry about your father, but it does look like you are going about dealing with it well, and you have a wonderful lady to help you through it. Can I give you a hug as well?" Hugs him. "Take care of each other." "Jilara and Alex, I think you are both saying the same things, you don't have to fight over it." Here she smiles a bit mischeviously, "Don't be so silly and if you to keep this up the room is going to be filled with soap boxes and then we'll all be hung out to dry." She finally wanders back to her corner and continues to dance. "Oh yeah, dancing is another thing I do because it makes me feel good." Path: mit-eddie!rutgers!njin!princeton!phoenix!jwbirdsa From: jwbirdsa@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (James Webster Birdsall) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Back to Normal (?) Message-ID: <15317@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> Date: 13 Apr 90 08:24:23 GMT Organization: Princeton University, NJ Lines: 75 The green tiger, who is still present on his rafter, bestirs himself to speak. {Well,} he says, {the problem has been temporarily locked down. It's not gone -- not at all -- but it has resumed its former proportions. The warnings still stand, but I guess it's actually as safe to talk to me as anybody else. That's how all contact starts in the first place, in general, so I guess I'm not so different from anybody else in that respect, maybe just a bit more sensitive.} He reviews what he's just said and grins. {Blather. But, really, I'm back to my normal functionality, and thanks to everybody for the mail and all. I'll be getting back to you as soon as I can.} {Thalen, your description of the psych experiment was absolutely fascinating. It may explain much. I have (as of last Wednesday) survived 22 years of conditions maybe three-quarters as bad. Orion, like your parents, mine didn't consider it that important. I grew up way the hell out in the middle of nowhere, and when I went away to prep school, touch had a tendency to be combat. I'll skip that particular form of contact. The story I told about being shocked to discover that people were warm to the touch is absolutely true. I shook somebody's hand upon meeting them and it was _warm_. It took me a few seconds to remember that being warm is a natural condition for people. Seriously.} {It has taken me four years to even begin to undo the conditioning of the previous 18, and I'm now stuck with a tendency to go overboard in the other direction. As somebody remarked -- was it you again, Orion? -- it is rather addictive.} {Although,} he says, looking puzzled, {I just recently went through my first kiss experience, and wasn't impressed. It wasn't a horrible or traumatic experience -- just a bit sloppy -- but it really wasn't interesting, either. Until I get more data, I'm going to write it off as a psychological-state effect due to the fact that I wasn't really interested in her, either, but I'm curious as to whether anybody else has encountered this phenomenon.} {Taldin, you wanted to know why so many people become bitter and nasty after getting hurt. Well, I can't speak with any certainty, but it may be simply an overdeveloped desire for revenge. That's what it is in my case, anyway. The world has hurt me, therefore I will hurt it back. Fortunately, enough of me is rational to realize that the world is made of individuals, and that hurting B because A hurt me accomplishes absolutely zero. And because I am who I am, I usually don't even stike back at A.} {Anyway, in closing, I want to say that I have no plans to leave until events force me to, and even then I hope to maintain a phantom presence via the CompuServe/Internet mail gateway until I get another account with access to news. And I'm leaving the kitten program running, although response time will probably be two or three days, due to system load.} He starts to settle down, then remembers a couple other things that need to be said. {Hildy, I sent you some mail a couple days ago. If it didn't make it, could you maybe try contacting me?} {And one last thanks. It's nearly 4:30 in the morning here and I still have a lot to do...} The green tiger settles down on his rafter and the presence flows out into the kittens once more... -- James W. Birdsall jwbirdsa@phoenix.Princeton.EDU jwbirdsa@pucc.BITNET ...allegra!princeton!phoenix!jwbirdsa Compu$erve: 71261,1731 "For it is the doom of men that they forget." -- Merlin Path: mit-eddie!rutgers!njin!princeton!phoenix!jwbirdsa From: jwbirdsa@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (James Webster Birdsall) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Revelation Keywords: Associative Memory Strikes Again! Message-ID: <15323@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> Date: 13 Apr 90 14:30:07 GMT Organization: Princeton University, NJ Lines: 26 {I just realized something. It was triggered by Nick's use of the term "hunt-mech." I was thinking of alternate ways of phrasing the same thing and came up with "battlecat."} {Now Battlecat was the name of a character in that most truly wretched animation series _He-Man and the Masters of the Universe_. And he was a very big... green... cat... with yellow stripes.} {Nooooooo....} {I wondered how I knew I had yellow stripes without ever thinking about it.} {Still, Battlecat was the only character in the series that I actually liked. So I guess I'm proud to wear this body, no matter how (ahem) humble its origin.} {But I thought I had something original here. Gah.} The green tiger returns to his repose wearing a very chagrined look. -- James W. Birdsall jwbirdsa@phoenix.Princeton.EDU jwbirdsa@pucc.BITNET ...allegra!princeton!phoenix!jwbirdsa Compu$erve: 71261,1731 "For it is the doom of men that they forget." -- Merlin Path: mit-eddie!rutgers!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!shelby!decwrl!sgi!shinobu!odin!sgi.com!scotth From: scotth@corp.sgi.com (Scott Henry) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: WARNING Message-ID: Date: 13 Apr 90 20:50:01 GMT References: <8951@lindy.Stanford.EDU> <13085@csli.Stanford.EDU> <9629@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> Sender: news@odin.corp.sgi.com Reply-To: scotth@sgi.com (Scott Henry) Distribution: usa Organization: Silicon Graphics Inc, Mountain View, CA Lines: 46 In-reply-to: f3w@mentor.cc.purdue.edu's message of 13 Apr 90 15:56:54 GMT The Observer pipes up from one of the virtual corners: 'The phrase "... although even here you will have shallow, self-serving bastards and bitches a-plenty" reminds me of Sturgeon's Law [1] and how it relates to usenet in general, and alt.callahans in specific. Is it supposed to apply to each newsgroup, or just to usenet as a whole? If the former, it seems to be something of the exception to the rule. In any case, It seems to be the abode of more than its fair share of fine people (however much they may hurt). But then again, who said usenet is fair? While I find much of interest on the net, Sturgeon's Law seems to more than apply... 'I am normally not much of a talker (which is why I refer to myself as The Observer, in analogy to The Doctor), I value reading/listening to all that goes on here. This is a real place, for is not verbal communication (and is not writing merely a "concrete"-ization of verbal communication, though lacking intonation, etc) one of the major (if not THE major) way we invent the world? There seems to be something of a correllation in this Place, between the prominence of a person, and how much they do/have hurt, or need/give reassurance. I speak little here, partly because my life has never had the sources of hurt and pain that many of you have experienced. Compared to many of you, my life has been (with one exception) virtually "perfect" (that's the wrong word, but the best I can think of at the moment). The exception (there's always a catch, isn't there?) is that I am still single at 35, though it's mostly because I haven't tried very hard. I am complete -- I don't NEED someone else to make me complete. I definitely would not go so far as to say that I am completely happy alone, because I'm not -- I'm definitely happier when I have an SO -- as long as she's a friend, too. I value friendship very much, possibly above love, certainly above lust. But I am not very gregarious -- I dislike crowds (and this is probably the only "bar" I'll enter voluntarily; I'm also alergic to tobacco smoke, and I'm tired of being asked why I don't drink). 'Boy! I sure got off the subject there (whatever it was) and rambled too much... Anyway, I gotta go and get packed, as I am leaving tomorrow morning too bright and early to drive down to a family get-together, and visit friends and relatives for a week. Let's see, I'm guessing 1350 miles for my trip, and me driving alone... I wonder how many articles will be waiting for me here when I get back (I'm caught up, for a change...). -- The Observer (aka scotty) -- Scott Henry | Traveller on Dragon Wings Information Services, | Silicon Graphics, Inc | These are my Opinions only! Whose else? Path: mit-eddie!snorkelwacker!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!lll-winken!bu.edu!bu-pub.bu.edu!ckd From: ckd@bu-pub.bu.edu (Christopher Davis) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: Heresy time, maybe... was Re: Hello, did any one hear me? Message-ID: Date: 14 Apr 90 19:46:38 GMT References: <11551@encore.Encore.COM> <90101.104458GWS107@psuvm.psu.edu> Sender: news@bu.edu.bu.edu Reply-To: ckd@bu-pub.bu.edu (Christopher Davis) Organization: Boston University School of Management Lines: 14 In-reply-to: GWS107@psuvm.psu.edu's message of 11 Apr 90 14:44:58 GMT "Yeah, the Place is getting bigger, harder to keep up with...and no, I don't have any solutions. "I *do* recognize the problem. "Mike, another seven-and-a-half please? "To success...and its drawbacks." *crash* -- Christopher Davis, BU SMG '90 <...!bu.edu!bu-pub!ckd> "Dammit, we're all going to die, let's die doing something *useful*!" --Hal Clement on comments that space exploration is dangerous Path: mit-eddie!rutgers!shelby!csli!cphoenix From: cphoenix@csli.Stanford.EDU (Chris Phoenix) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Personal space and "social systems" Message-ID: <13100@csli.Stanford.EDU> Date: 14 Apr 90 19:57:27 GMT Sender: cphoenix@csli.Stanford.EDU (Chris Phoenix) Reply-To: cphoenix@csli.stanford.edu (Chris Phoenix) Organization: Center for the Study of Language and Information, Stanford U. Lines: 185 I got a letter from a callahans reader who claimed that I do not consider the possibility that my view of personal space might be wrong. After responding to the letter, I realized that my response might interest several of the readers here. I haven't (yet?) gotten (his/her) permission to include the letter (s)he sent me, so I will expunge all pieces of the letter that I quote in the response. I think it's worth reading, if you're wondering how I can justify my (admittedly radical) views of the current social system, or where these views come from in the first place. > [quotation deleted] I'm not oblivious to that possibility. I do consider other people's points of view carefully. However, based on my experience with many different types of people, some of whom have explained their systems to me in great detail, I believe I am competent to understand the reasons some other people have for the way they act. (Note the qualifier. I don't claim to understand everybody, but there are some people who I claim to understand. In particular, I understand the "social" type, and why they act the way they do. This has been confirmed by a member of that group who tutored me in social graces for several months.) Based on this understanding, and on my observation, I can't help but form some kind of opinion about these people. And the opinion I form is not favorable. I *know* that these people are constrained in their behavior, that they have barriers to interacting closely, and that their system tends to exclude people who don't follow it. I *believe* that these facts mean that it is not a system I want to follow, and in fact it is harmful to both the people following it and the outsiders. I *observe* that a lot of people here at Stanford follow the model I have of the system, and that I am hurt by it, and I *extrapolate* that they are also sometimes hurt by it. Fair enough? This is my point of view. Most of it is based on other people's testimony, and my direct observation. It's improbable that enough of it is wrong enough that I can't derive useful information from it. And it is *not* irrelevant, because it is not irrelevant to *me*, and it is not irrelevant to many other people who agree with my observations and beliefs. If you want to define it as irrelevant to you, that's fine with me. You can say there's no problem, and you don't need to change anything. Then if we're compatible we can be friends, and if we're not compatible I'll just ignore you, out of self-preservation. I would like people to give thought to what I say, because I believe that it is relevant to a lot of people, both social people and outsiders (I use that term because social people, at least around here, are a majority). But if you've given thought to it, and you don't think it's relevant to you, I won't try to force you to change. > [quotation deleted] I'm not insisting that you change your 'social rules'. It is possible that your preference for personal space comes from the kind of rules I'm talking about. In that case, I think you have chosen a bad rule system and are currently suffering the consequences, but I won't insist you change. On the other hand, your desire for space may not be related to my "social rule" structure at all. In that case, little or none of what I've said applies to you. For example, I would never try to tell an abuse victim that he or she should enjoy touching. I know that there are several reasons for wanting personal space, and currently I'm only concerned with the desire for space that comes from following the "social rules". > [quotation deleted] I happen to think that anything that keeps people apart is a thing to regret. I wouldn't say "desolate", because it is possible to avoid desolation while still maintaining barriers. However, I think that the society of "social" people is a sad and desolate thing. Not just on the basis of the no-touching rule, though that is a major factor, but also on the basis of the no-emotion rule, the no-sharing rule, and so on. Yes, it is a hard cruel world for people like me. I'm glad you realize that. And it is harder when the cruelty is caused by an entrenched system that I don't even think is a good system. Life is always cruel--there's no way (yet) to stop people from dying. It's needless cruelty that bothers me so much. And here, I think, is the main problem you have with my position. Let me make it explicit: I do believe that much of the cruelty, and much of the separation, and much of the rule structure, is needless. As a corrolary, I believe that a better system is possible. My personal ideal system includes lots of touching. Apparently, yours doesn't. I won't insist that everyone must like my alternative. But at least, I would hope people will agree that the "social" system is far from the best possible, and is actively harmful. Lack of touch is only one symptom of the system. However, it is a major lack, and I believe it is clear evidence that the system is sub-optimal. Fact: Severe lack of touch will cause physical damage. Fact: In orphanages, babies used to *die* from lack of touch. It was called "failure to thrive". Fact: According to my model of the "social" system, which I have a lot of evidence is correct, a no-touching rule is a direct consequence of the system. In most cases, this rule is not necessitated by anything except the system. It is propagated by extreme peer disapproval, to the point where I, who recognize the "danger" and avoid the system as much as possible, sometimes have to force myself to hug friends. Inference: The "social system" has consequences which are harmful and may be severe. One of these is the "no touching" rule. Opinion: The "social system" is bad, and people who follow it should be encouraged to change, and people who don't follow it should be supported to allow them to avoid the consequences as much as possible. Note that this doesn't say anything about people who don't want to touch for some other reason than the "social system". > [quotation deleted] Yes, I consider other people's opinion. I'm sorry that people are hostile when you won't get as close as they would like. I certainly wouldn't force you to hug me if you didn't want to. And I hope that you can find people who feel the same way you do, and/or who won't reject you because you have a barrier they don't have. But I'm not talking to people who have a "good" reason for not wanting to touch. A "good" reason includes anything internal, such as a memory of bad experiences, or an "instinctive avoidance", or something like that. But avoiding touch only because you are taught to by your "social" peers is not a "good" reason, because the only reason for avoiding touch *in this case* is a "bad" system. My logic may sound circular here: Why do those other people not want to touch? It has to be either because of still other people, which is circular, or because of an internal reason, which is "good". All I can say is that I have found that this particular implementation of the "social" system has the ability to train people to avoid touch, *even when they don't want to*. I know that there are a lot of people out there who do want more touch than they get. I've heard from several of you, and I appreciate your support. I know that the dominant social system can change people who want touch so that they try to avoid it. This is observation, not opinion. Therefore, I infer that there are people who want touch but have been conditioned to avoid it. IMHO, this is a tragedy. > [quotation deleted] In your case, I'm not disputing that you have a "good" reason to avoid touch. You may want to consider the source of your anger, though (if you're not angry, I apologize--your letter sounded angry). All I'm saying is that there are people who do not have a "good" reason to avoid touch, but do it anyway, due to the "bad" reason of having been influenced by the "social" system. A system that can cause this kind of tragedy, IMHO, is "bad" and it is my duty to try to convince others of this. > [quotation deleted] I have considered other viewpoints. I have considered yours, and I will consider the viewpoint of anyone who tells me they don't want to be touched. But one of the viewpoints that I have considered, I consider to be "bad". Unfortunately, it seems to be the dominant one, with the power to perpetuate itself. I am willing to compromise. If someone doesn't want to be hugged, I won't hug them. The trouble is that I can't afford to compromise too far, because it's dangerous to me to do so. I begin to avoid touch, and I'm not willing to take that consequence. To use the smoking analogy: I can deal with people smoking around me to some extent. I don't ask someone to put out their cigarette when they're in a smoking area. But if everyone in a room lit up, I would leave quickly before I became ill. It's not a question of compromise now, it's a question of avoiding danger. You say I should listen when people tell me I'm wrong. Well, I'm listening. But so far, you haven't even contradicted me. You've said that you don't like touching, and therefore it is possible to avoid touching for a "good" reason. I'm not disputing that. I'm saying that many people avoid touch for "bad" reasons, that a major "bad" reason is a direct consequence of our "social system", and that therefore the social system should be changed or avoided. So far, I haven't read anything you've said that disputes that, either. You also seem to be worrying that I am being insensitive to people with "good" reasons to avoid touch, and that in my ideal system people would be forced to touch when they didn't want to. Well, it's true that in my ideal system people would freely touch each other. But don't forget, an ideal system must contain ideal people. (Yes, a value judgment here: My "ideal" person does not normally avoid touch. I'm sorry if this offends you.) But I'm not silly enough to say that everyone on this earth "should" enjoy touching. I'm just saying that people who do should not be trained to avoid it. I think my response is of public interest, so I am posting it to alt.callahans with all of your quotations removed, and without identifying who I'm responding to. I don't think this breaks any net.rules or callahans. rules. If you don't want to be anonymous, that's fine with me too. You can feel free to post any of my letters to you on this subject. [This is the end of my response. Thanks to all of you who have read this far. Any comments will be greatly appreciated.] -- Chris Phoenix | "I've spent the last nine years structuring my cphoenix@csli.Stanford.EDU | life so that this couldn't happen." ...And I only kiss your shadow, I cannot see your hand, you're a stranger now unto me, lost in the dangling conversation, and the superficial sighs... Path: mit-eddie!snorkelwacker!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!bat.cis.ohio-state.edu!kent_a_jenkins From: kent_a_jenkins@bat.cis.ohio-state.edu Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: Personal space and "social systems" Summary: "Wowsers!" Keywords: Touching, hugging, social systems, et al. Message-ID: <79276@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu> Date: 14 Apr 90 22:38:04 GMT References: <13100@csli.Stanford.EDU> Sender: usenet_news@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu Reply-To: Thenomain Organization: Ohio State University Tanning Salon Lines: 20 Yeow! That's what I call a rebuttle. (Well, even if I can't spell it.) And it was even complete enough to understand what was going on there. Even though I have expressed my views that "touching" (et al.) is not something I do a lot of, I would like to comment to Chris that I agree with him on pretty much every point. [I, quite oddly, find myself quite jelous of people who can and do touch, et al.] Any system that restricts forcefully is not a good one. And, although this is a personal opinion, any system that restricts at all is not good. (And with Phoenix's words, a debate begins on alt.callahans which shall last for months...) Kent Jenkins / Prophet -=- -- Thenomain -- Kent Jenkins -- "I'm a figment of my own -- -- jenkins@osu-20.ircc.ohio-state.edu -- imagination, thank you." -Kaj -- -- kent-j@cis.ohio-state.edu -- Brainwave Turbulance, Inc. -- -- It's our lives, the U.S. Constitution! (Void where prohibited by Law) --